>> You've tuned into Hub Talk, a podcast about teaching, learning and technology. [ Music ] Okay. Welcome back to Hub Talk. This is the second part of our interview with Patrick Lowenthal about instructor presence. You talked a little bit about courses that might be discussion heavy more so than others. We know that discussions are one form of interaction that get used a lot in online courses. But there are some instructors that are probably maybe resistant to them and don't like them, because they'll make the comment, we'll they don't work, because one student answers and then everyone else, you know, just says, yeah, great job, or I agree. What are your thoughts on creating effective discussions -- And I know you said depending on your content you might have a less heavy discussion-based course. But what are your thoughts, or what would you tell someone maybe new to online about creating effective discussions? >> There are people definitely that, you know, hate online discussions. There's students who hate them. There's faculty who hate them. You know, but I think sometimes, too, we overestimate how wonderful our classroom-based discussions are in face-to-face. You know, we act like [inaudible] so engaged, and everything's so magical where, you know, if you look around there's the student on Facebook. There's the student doing this. There's the one sleeping or -- So I think that we need to keep in mind that, you know, face-to-face isn't the gold standard when it comes to discussions. But I think that with online sometimes one of the biggest things that I try to do or recommend that people do is vary the type of discussions you use. And so what I mean by that is, yeah, it can be an asynchronous threaded text-based discussion. But you can have small group. You can have whole class. You can have the small group go off and meet and come back, kind of, a think, pair, share. And share things out to the whole class. You can also have things where students share their work. And they discuss or they critique it. And so there's lots of ways for us to do discussions. And I think that what often makes some online course discussions so bad is they get too predictable. They're the same thing every week, you know, respond to Chapter 3 by Tuesday. By Thursday reply to two more. And it's just not, kind of, inspiring and so -- But there is an art. Like, how do you write a good discussion post. How do you have one that is really going to get people involved but, you know, whether it's debates or, you know, but even using video. Flipgrid or -- I've had people use their phone and record themselves responding, upload it to YouTube, and post in this discussion form. You know, there's voice -- There's lots of different ways to do this. And so, you know, I think that it takes time. It takes some creativity. Takes experience. But, you know, my experience is that you often get what you ask for, too. And so if you want something more than a need to reply, then you have to ask for it and grade it. And if you say you have to respond in 200 words or, you know, or less with citing the reading or this or that, you're going to find you're going to get more of that then if you don't ask for that, you know? There's often two LMS functions, like, you can do a post first before you can see other people's replies. So there's some other things you do. There's, you know, Julie Dunlop, my colleague, the co-author of The Power of Presence, she is a short paper that we did, or that she did that was in a book that I edited at my last institution that's I think it's called, like, Down and Dirty Guidelines for Discussions. But she talks about different protocols. So there's, you know, there's different discussion protocols that she, kind of, leveraged some that people use in face-to-face situations. But she gives different ways that you can, you know, do things in discussions to, kind of, change it up. And so and the last thing I would say -- Or there's two other points to this that I'd point out. Is one is facilitating it and actively. Deciding how you do it and being real clear with how you do it. So are you going to be the type where you are interacting with students constantly? Or are you more the type at the end of the week you're gonna summarize their key main points? Are you the type where you don't want to be involved, but you want students to serve as facilitators for little groups? So there's lots of ways to do it. But I think it's being clear about how you're doing it so students know. So if you're not actively in the discussions they still know that you're monitoring them and that you haven't totally forgotten. You know, and then the last thing, and Karen Swan has done some work about this, but that, you know, you have to grade it. In some form or typically students aren't gonna take part in it. So even by doctoral students that, you know, these are educators, they're, you know, but they're busy adults. If you don't add points. And so there's lots of different ways to grade discussions. Some people like to do it every week with a detailed rubric. Other people might do something where at the end of the semester they're adding up a certain number of discussions. You know, so grading is its own artform. And some people don't do well with the bean counting. You know, there are other features were you can rate. And some discussion forms you can rate up or one up. And so there are ways that you can even put students in charge of, kind of, giving out points or most influential discussion posts. But it takes practice, you know? If you find what you're doing is boring you to death and boring your students to death, then I really recommend for factly to change it up. And the last thing that I would tell faculty is that you don't have to have a discussion every week. There could be a week where they're working on a paper, they're doing something. And so I sometimes try to give students a break. And it doesn't mean that they're not, you know, you still want to have substantive interaction and show that they're doing stuff. But I think sometimes we overdo discussions. Or people will have two to three a week. And that can be a lot. And so sometimes people will have choice, well, here's two discussion prompts. You choose which one you reply to. Or there's 10 discussions this semester. You have to actively engage in six of them, you pick which ones. So there are different ways that you can do it. But it is an art, for sure. >> Those are some great tips. And it gets me thinking about in our department designing some workshops around how to, kind of, design some [crosstalk] discussions. >> Good idea. Yeah. >> And using some of this info. And I like the, I'm going to look up the Down and Dirty Guide for Discussions, too. That sounds interesting. >> So along the lines of the discussions and in all courses, but especially online, students and instructors both kind of express a hatred for group work. I always tell my students group work is inevitable. I mean, if you're on a sports team, if you're in theater, if you're in professional world, you're going to have group work. But students often don't like the hassle of coordinating and scheduling and all that. Or there's that unequal balance of participation. Why would you say that group work is in an effective strategy for increasing social presence? And do you have any tips, kind of, like discussions, do you have any tips for making that experience more efficient and more well-run? >> You know, group work, it's tricky. But, like you said, it's a fact of life. But not only that has it always been a fact of life, in some ways, you know, people hate group work even more online. Because there is this lag. There is this you don't have people together at the same table, you know, with chart paper, right? We have to sit there and work on each other's schedules and communicate with digital tools. But that's the 21st century. This is, you know, most jobs you're gonna find ways where you have to interact with people online. You have to be able do group projects online. You have to be will play nice with others. And so to me there's almost more reason than ever before to help students learn how to do this. And to learn in a safe environment, such as a class where they can make mistakes. But for me I believe that group work if it's positive can be one of the best things. Because students get to know each other in a purposeful way. Slowly interact Get to know each other more. And in the one study Joni and I did we found that when students had a positive group experience, whether in a cohort [phonetic]-based model or not they found that they were more likely to stay in touch with those students in that class. But there's the flip side when it doesn't go well it can also be really problematic. And so then it gets to this point of how do you, kind of, help ensure that things are going to go well. So for me one of the first things this is figure out why are you having the group work. And is it the right assignment in the right time. Sometimes, you know, when you start off at the beginning the semester maybe that's not the best time. You know, also, you know, are you doing the group work just to save yourself grading so you have less to grade? Or is there really a purposeful way, and is that the best assignment to do it? But then it's also it's about planning and thinking through this. And so group size can play a part. And so typically with my group projects I have three to five students. I don't really have any more because if not students can, kind of, disappear. If there's less than three. If a student drops a course things can be problematic. So I find that three to five can be, kind of, a sweet number for me. I tend to randomly select the groups. And so I don't let students pick their own groups. There's been a few times I've purposely, like, I might have up a few doctoral students in a course with all masters, I put the doctoral students all together. But you can imagine, too, you know, getting people of similar backgrounds. So for me, if I'm teaching class I have some high school math teachers and so I can see some purposeful grouping perhaps at times. But generally I just randomly do it. I also don't overdo it. I try not to have more than one group project in a class. There's a few exceptions. There is, you know, one class I teach where there's a small design team as a group where they give each other feedback throughout the semester. And so just depends on how you, kind of, think about and use groups. And so sometimes if you, I've thought, for instance, two sections of the same course. All of a sudden I have, you know, we'll say 45 students in a course because it's two sections. I'll then break that up into, you know, three, four, five smaller groups. And that's where all the discussions are going. And so group work doesn't always have to be about just let's create a group project together. It could be let's have a small group where our discussions are rather than a class authority it's they're only getting to know, you know, seven or eight of their peers. And so it's more manageable for them. Other things are clear expectations. And so for me it's, you know, have them understand what they need to do. A clear rubric. And then sometimes, too -- And Joni Dunlop has another thing on, I think it's increasing the odds of collaboration online, but having some type of way where, you know, students get a group grade. They get an individual grade, and then a self-assessment grade. And so you can do it where they have to self-assess how they, what they contributed to the group. The group members get to assess each other. And then there's this, kind of, group project grade. And so, you know, the point of that is is if things are going bad or if one student's doing all the work they don't get the same, you know, grade as the student who did nothing. >> Yeah. Those are two great tips. What about static group throughout the semester term versus rotating groups? >> So the static group -- So it goes back to this idea of, you know, in elementary school or something they'll talk about sometimes a teacher loops. And that means your kid has the same teacher two years in a row. And the research shows that's great when it's a good teacher. >> Right. >> But when it's a bad teacher it's horrible for -- Right? >> Yeah. >> And so that's the same, kind of, thing static groups. If the group's not going well that can be horrible for everyone involved, including you, the teacher. And so, you know, most of my classes I wouldn't have a static group throughout the whole semester unless it was a discussion-based group. And my discussion-based groups tend to be more, like, 10 to 12 students, they're not that, kind of, three to five. Typically if I do project it's a project that only last a couple weeks. And I only do it once in the semester. And so, you know, it is one group. I'm not rotating them. You know, because what happens sometimes when you start rotating groups I think that it can get complicated. It can become more work for you as an instructor trying to manage it. Students then have to get to know the new group members and their working styles. For group projects, I tend to just do it once. I tend to randomly select the groups. And I tend to only have it last a couple weeks at most. Because I don't want it to take over the course experience as a whole. There's two exceptions. One of the exceptions is my doctoral students who they take their first course and they're on a cohort. And as I do try to rotate them a little so they get to know each other better. >> Sure. >> But this something unique there. And then I also teach a course in online course design. And I put people in design teams. And it's one group throughout the whole semester. And so there's not one way to do it, I guess is my point. And so if you're going to rotate groups I would only do it a couple times. I wouldn't go crazy with it. >> Mm hmm. >> Because, you know, group work can get old for everyone involved. And so it's about balancing it. And so for me if I talk to a faculty teach online probably the first semester or two, yes, maybe not add a group work assignment. But group work, when it's done well, can also save you time because you are grading less projects. It can help students work on their collaboration skills that's really important. So I think group work's really key, but it's about supporting it, not overdoing it. >> Now you mentioned just there that you might not recommend, you know, complicated group strategies for a brand-new instructor. But if we think about, and Colin and I work with new online instructors quite a lot here in our department, but if you met a brand-new instructor, brand-new online instructor, what maybe, I don't know, two or three strategies would you suggest for them to start with that, you know, might not be as overwhelming as, you know, a whole laundry list like you have here in the Power of Presence? But, you know, just a couple really good ones that they could start with to increase their presence in their online class? >> So for me when I think about increasing presence for a new instructor it's about making sure that they somewhere in the course -- And quality matters talks about that. Having a bio. Something where they introduce themselves. And not just the, you know, I have these three degrees or two degrees and, you know, but just something about whether it's their content expertise or interest, or hobbies. And different people are more comfortable sharing other things about themselves, but, you know, share something about, let students get to know you. This could be in text format. It could be in video. But also then give students a chance to get to know each other. So having an icebreaker type of activity where students -- And the key there, too, is , you know, whether it's one truth and two lies or -- You don't want to do the same type of thing that everyone's doing . And so it's thinking about creativity. And finding different ways. Then it's really about, for me talking to instructors, is making sure that they are regularly in the class, and they at least see what's going on. I would recommend that they reach out to students directly in an email once a semester at least. You know those are real low hanging things, just checking in. And I even do it with my LMS where I can just sit there and send a group email, but it's all BC and I just say, hey want to see things are going, Patrick. And I don't, you know, send individual ones. But it comes across as individual. Some you realize that it's not. But about a third of them, if not half, will respond to me and we'll talk through some stuff. And the other thing is to really, kind of, find a way to give some detailed feedback for grading at some point in the semester. And so those are some real basic things that are just good teaching. But I think that, you know, sometimes we can get, you know, distracted with all the craziness that's happening with a new online course. But it's, you know, how do you introduce yourself? How do you have them introduce each other so they know something about each other? How do you give students, you know, some discussions where they are interacting throughout? How do you give some detailed feedback? And then how do you do some of that one-on-one communication? Whether it's a phone call, whether it's a one-on-one email or something. >> Great. >> Yeah, those are great. And, again, gives me some good ideas of some things we could build in. So Bill and I have each facilitated what we call the e-learn Institute, which is our new to online instruction workshop. And so these are some great strategies that we could build into that online coursework as well. >> Definitely. >> Well, all of these have been have been amazingly insightful. I'm going to take a lot of these to my own online classes. So thanks, Patrick, for sharing those. Is there anything else, thoughts or suggestions, tips that you'd like to share? Or anything else you're working on that you're excited about? >> The other tips, it's hard, it would depend on who I'm working with. If, you know, back to a beginning faculty member. Someone's an experienced faculty member I really say a lot of, I highly recommend using live synchronous technology in some way. And I also riff [phonetic] on video feedbacks, very powerful. So those are, kind of, advanced things that I talk to people. >> Mm hmm. >> But, you know, the bigger suggestion or tip at the end is recognize that not to go crazy with social presence where -- Because not everyone needs it all. But you need to do some intentional things to help establish it, to help make it, kind of, happen. And then it doesn't just automatically happen and just stay on autopilot. You gotta kinda tend the garden. You gotta to come back to it. And so it might be halfway through the semester trying to do something else intentional. And just, kind of, you know, wrapping it up. It's key to students feeling like they getting a sense of belongingness. Which research has shown helps them persist. It also helps you get a better idea of where students are at. And, you know, are they are the struggling. Are they not. When you know they're, kind of, situation. And it's hard when you're teaching let's say four or five classes, whatever it might be. You know, one of the things I do, especially with my doctoral students is I have them create in a Google doc, it's templated, but they put their picture and they put a short little bio and I print it up next to my desk. So when something's going up, sometimes I forget, you know, who -- Not sometimes, I often forget who someone is, but I can look over and then be, like, oh, that's Gina. Okay, Gina is in San Antonio. Or Megan is -- You know, so there are other ways that I can help myself kinda remember who people are. You know, I've had a college who she keeps a spreadsheet. And when she's in discussions she tries to make sure that she replies to each student at least once or twice throughout the semester. So she keeps a running tally of when she's done it. So it's not that she's -- >> Oh, that's cool. >> Yeah. >> She's not trying every week, right? To respond every student. But she's trying to make sure that she makes the rounds, if that makes sense. And so, you know, these are just some different tips. But, you know, when people are new teaching online is scary. As I said, it was scary when I started. >> Yeah. >> And so, you know, but too often I think, you know, we overthink it. These are other people, you know, we can do this. And we can of fun with it. It can be amazing and -- But sometimes it's not, and that's okay, too. >> Yeah. Well, Patrick, thank you so much for joining us today. Our listeners can find more about you and your research, publications, presentations, all of that great stuff at PatrickLowenthal.com. And your own social media, people can find you there. And I also wanted to mention to our listeners that if you're interested in implementing any of the strategies that Patrick mentioned and we discussed, come on down to the Tech Hub and we'd be happy to chat about it more with you. And even get you started with some tech tools to make that all happen. >> Yeah, and we talked several times about, in this episode, about the QOI course reviews or quality online instruction. And if you'd like to take a look at that rubric and get familiar with the standards that relate to instructor presence and facilitation, you can get those at facultyhub.chemeketa.edu and look under course reviews. The QOI course reviews are required for every online instructor here at Chemeketa. You just have to do one. But the idea is to look at the whole course, the design, the instructor presence, the facilitation, the student support. All of those that go together to make an effective online course. >> And last but not least, we'd like to thank Thomas Bishop, the e-learn systems administrator in the Center for Academic Innovation, who wrote and recorded the music for this episode, A Whole Lot of Nothing. So thanks everyone who was involved today. I'm Colin Stapp. >> And I'm Bill Hamlin. >> And this has been Hub Talk. >> Hub Talk is produced by the Center for Academic Innovation at Chemeketa Community College. Visit our website, FacultyHub.Chemeketa.edu to find helpful resources about teaching, learning and technology integration, along with video tutorials and more podcast episodes just like this one.