[ Static ] >> You've tuned in to HubTalk, a podcast about teaching, learning, and technology. [ Music ] >> OK, welcome back to this episode of HubTalk, I'm Colin. >> I am Bill. >> And today our topic is the dynamics of group work, and we'll be talking with Debbie Hornibrook, who is a COMM instructor here at Chemeketa Community College. And she teaches COMM 219, which is a team communication and leadership course. So she's going to be sharing some of her insight about group work and group activities. >> Debbie has been teaching communication courses for about 30 years, and about half that time here at Chemeketa, and like Colin mentioned, team communication and leadership course, currently. She's also currently the chair of the communication department. And before Chemeketa, Debbie, spent eight years at Northwest Education up in Portland providing training and other services to educators throughout the area. Debbie, thanks for joining us! >> Thank you for having me here. >> Give us a little bit more, maybe a little more background about yourself before we jump into our topic of the day. >> Sure. Well, my degree is in communication, and there are so many different aspects of communication. We usually think of public speaking when we think of that. But really, there's interpersonal communication, which is, you know, communication between a couple of people. You can think of families, too. And then, you know, public speaking, that's a whole different context. You have one person speaking to a lot of people. Intercultural communication is a pretty well-known topic these days where you're learning to adapt your communication with people from different cultural backgrounds. And then small group communication, which the dynamics are different than when you're just with two people, with your large, you know, large group or public setting. And so you kind of have to learn some different aspects of how to communicate in that situation. So one of that -- my background in the communication discipline, and then I was really fortunate. I spent about eight years at the education lab, and that's a place where they provide services for educators, K-12 educators throughout the northwest. They kind of summarize a lot of the most recent educational research and make it accessible into, you know, pamphlets and books, and they also provide workshops. So we did a lot of teamwork. We worked in teams, and we also worked with educators in teams and taught them how to work in teams better. So I had the practical and applied side from there, as well as a theoretical background from the communication area. >> Very cool. >> Thank you, Debbie. So for many, when we think about group work, there's that collective eye roll comes to mind thinking of the worst case scenario of the group project that went bad. And so for a lot of people, both students and faculty, the idea of group work is not probably something that they relish doing in the classroom because of those times that things have gone bad. But that's why we have Debbie here today is to talk to us about her class, how it's structured, find out some insights on how group activities could be structured so that they would be positive. So let's jump into it. >> So you probably, if you think back, some of your worst experiences could have been in groups, where things didn't go right. There was a difficult person. People didn't show up with their work completed. There's poor quality work, all sorts of reasons, but it can be a tough experience. But you probably also could think about times where something you've accomplished in a team has been the best experience you've ever had. You felt that synergy, that connection with people, the trust you develop, the friendships, and you felt pride in what you accomplished. So when things go well, they can be some of the best experiences that you have. So the question is, how do you make it into one of the best experiences instead of one of those ones that kind of goes wrong? >> Exactly. That's why everyone is tuned in. They want to know that magic secret that you have to share about that. >> Well, and it's tricky because really there is no guarantee. And those of us who are teachers, you know, you can teach the same topic to two different classes and the group dynamics in those two classes are entirely different. And that's what's interesting about groups is that each and every group is going to be different, and there is no set recipe because you're going to have to adapt in each situation. And you're not always going to get it right, but there are some things that you can do that will make things more likely to, you know, have a really positive experience. >> So can you tell us just a little bit about your team communication and leadership class? Because that, from what I know, that class is all about group activities and group works. >> Yes. >> So can you tell us a little bit about how that's structured? >> I really enjoy teaching this class. The first half of the class is spent a lot on the basics of group dynamics, and of course, as you might imagine, people work in groups an awful lot. But there's probably as much practice as there is theory in there. It gives some theory, but then they work in groups to accomplish tasks while implementing whatever it is that the learning is for the day. So that's the first half, so they kind of get some experience and some knowledge. And then during the second half, I have them pick out their own service learning project where they go from start to finish and they have to apply everything they've been learning. At the same time, there'll be some lecture material on the other days that they aren't working in groups. So they continue to add to their knowledge base as we go. But it's great, they pick their own project, and it has to be a small project because there's really only half a term to complete the whole thing. They have several things that they have to accomplish including writing three reports and doing an E-portfolio, making one up from scratch, and doing a presentation at the end to their classmates about what they did. And the service learning projects, in case you're wondering, they do things like they choose a lot of beautification projects. Well, last term, or last time I taught it, one group chose to paint the fire hydrants at Chemeketa. I didn't even know there were fire hydrants around here. But they -- I guess the city doesn't -- they use volunteers to paint those, repaint them. And you go to the city and they will give you all the materials and the instructions. They had to use wire brushes to clean them off, and they have a little plastic thing that goes around it so they can capture all the dirt and the paint, and then they paint them. So things like that that are meaningful. They thought it was meaningful because of our program here with fire -- >> Mm-hmm. >> -- and it was on Chemeketa property. Sometimes they will paint over graffiti, sometimes they will choose to do park clean up. I've been doing it for about 15 years, so you can imagine there's lots and lots of different types of projects. Sending care packages to our service people. Generally, I like them to pick something where they figure it out from start to finish and manage the whole project. So that's what they do in the class. There's lots of information in addition to group dynamics, things like leadership theories. There's lots of different ways to be a leader, not one. Sometimes people are surprised to find that out. And decision making is a real challenge in groups, right? It's not just you making the decision. You have to figure out how to share information and opinions, and then have a process where everybody sort of buys in to whatever decision is made. On the other hand, if it's a quick -- if you're in an emergency situation, you don't have time, so you're going to have to have a more authoritarian leader in decision making structure. So adapting your decision-making style to the situation and the needs is really important. So you need a lot of different tools to understand so that you can pick the one that'll going to work best in the right situation. >> Mm-hmm. >> So leadership, conflict, problem solving, there's a chapter on argumentation. So I'm learning how to make -- support their choice of service learning project through a good argument is part of it. >> So when I think about group activities, and I've heard people talk, you know, like I said, they always, they always seem to migrate towards that bad group activity, and how their grade got brought down because it was based on the group. How do you do your grading? Is the whole group being graded collectively or individually? >> That's a really good question, and I thought a lot about that over the years. Mine is about half and half. So half of their grade is usually pretty dependent on the group, and how I do that is several different things. But -- and then the other half is their own individual work. So when they do their projects, I give them a group grade on the project, but there's a participation form that they're required to fill out. And they have to rate their participation as well as all their group members' participation, and I actually use a percentage. So I add up the points that each group member gets. And if they get five out of five points from all group members, that's 100%, so they get 100% of the group grade. If they get four, three, two, you know, if they get 20 points instead of 25 points, if there are five group members, then they would get what whatever that turns out to be, 80% of the group grade. And if they -- if they rate the other people with less than 100%, they have to write down why, so I would have feedback. They share it anonymously, except for with me. But that way I do have their reasons for giving less than the 100%. And interestingly, most people know when they're not participating at 100%, and they are accepting of that grade. I don't generally have complaints, and some people would rather just -- they have other things going on in their life or their, for whatever reason they're OK, that they realize that they didn't give as much as some other people were able to. So that's one way. They also take, interestingly, group tests, and that's not done as often. But it's a multiple choice and true false test, they take it in a group, and they have to decide on the answers. And they -- so they get a group grade for that, and then they take an individual test after that that's only ten questions long. So they also have their individual grade. And if they do poorly on the individual one, there's sort of a mathematical formula that calculates out. And they -- so the people that miss only one or zero get the full group grade on the test. If you miss like four or five, then you're going to get less, there's points subtracted. So it -- >> OK. >> -- mediates for that. >> Yeah. >> So the main thing, though, is a participation form. People have a chance to give input when people don't participate as much. >> So I have a middle schooler and she's kind of just now getting into group work in her class and she had a pretty rough experience the first go around, and there -- I didn't know really what to tell her, and I think I could translate this to a college student. But, you know, her main frustration was she felt she was doing all the work and everything. And you mentioned, you know, the participation form that group members can fill out and provide that feedback and obviously grades that they're earning based on that work, but do you find yourself needing to intervene like during a project and actually kind of -- >> Occasionally -- >> -- step people aside and talk to them? >> -- but not so much. If you really teach group dynamics, then the group does that themselves. >> OK, kind of self-governed. >> But the problem is that it's not really taught very much. Kind of you get thrown into a group and go do it, right? >> Yeah. >> That's the -- and ideally what you would have is you would be given some instruction on how to work in a group and what to do when problems come up. And then you would have some sense of what to do, and you can approach the instructor if you need to, and people have done that and I have intervened and talked to people, but that's not really the norm. >> Okay. >> So I'm hoping, you know, if I share what some of the things to learn about that you can help your students by giving them some basics. Doesn't have to take all that long to give them the basics, but if you do, they'll know what to do. That is probably the number one complaint is I ended up doing all the work and everybody got credit. >> Yeah. >> That's -- >> So in your class, how do you determine the groups? >> Oh, well, you know, various ways, you know, at the beginning of the class, I -- birthdays and put them in groups according to birthdays, just random kinds of things. When I select for the service learning projects, it's a different procedure. I actually started this recently. I had them self-identify into four groups, one, people that are -- that believe themselves to be fairly strong in writing, test taking, people that are good with meeting other people, and technology. And then I have form groups with one person from each of those groups. So it's still a random way, but I -- >> That's smart, though, because you're getting someone with all those different skills. I see where you're -- >> Yes. >> -- headed with that. >> And thinking ahead about what would be needed in order to excel in the project and the rubrics that I have developed. And so we do need a technology person for the portfolio, we need writing skills for the reports, we need people, people who are going to connect in the service learning with whatever other people out in the community that they need to connect with, and -- what did I leave out? Test taking! >> Test taking, yeah. >> Test taking, because they take the test in their group as well. >> So you're kind of setting them up for success ahead of time. >> Ideally. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So once they're in these groups for like the service learning projects, do they ever change their role or function, or do they just stick with it? >> Well, you know, that's a good question too, and I recommend two different things. For learning purposes, it's great that they change roles because -- I suggest that maybe if you're used to being the leader, why don't you be a follower this time and take a different role? If you're not used to being a leader and that's really uncomfortable, you know, facilitator is not a role that you know how to do, then take it on. This is the perfect learning situation. So I asked them to discuss those things in their groups and decide what would be a good approach for them. >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and it doesn't always play to their strengths. It helps -- you're helping them develop some of those other -- >> Right. >> -- things like facilitating meetings or -- >> Right, some people gravitate towards always taking on the secretarial role, right? Taking minutes and whatever they prefer. But sometimes we need to get out of those roles, sometimes they're even gender related, you know? And so asking ourselves to take on a quieter role if we are always talking, or taking on a more active role if we're used to kind of being in the background can be helpful. >> So another question for you, Debbie. In my own education, I had instructors and classes where it felt to me like the group project was simply made a group project because it was deemed bigger or, you know, the assignment was more rigorous or something. So it felt like the instructor made us do it as a group because he or she felt that we couldn't do it individually. >> Right. >> Or something like that. Is that a valid, non-valid way of -- >> Yeah, that's a good question, is when to use groups and when not to use groups. >> Yeah. >> That's a really good question, and the thing, the -- when you use teams, it's when people have expertise and knowledge that, when you put them together, they have a broader knowledge base and a lot more skills to bring to the task. And so ideally, that task is going to be accomplished in -- the outcome is going to be much stronger when you have all those combined resources. If one person by themselves could do the task than it should be an individual task. But if you look out in the work world, there are so many creative tasks that people accomplish and you could never do some of those things on your own. So how to work with people to accomplish those larger things where you need that range of skills. That's where groups are really important. So that's when you assign groups, ideally, is when it's something that you really want to bring together everybody's skills and visions and insights and knowledge and experiences. >> That makes a lot of sense. So it doesn't end up being like busy work. >> Right. >> That's kind of what you were mentioning almost -- >> Right. >> -- though, was that it seemed like it was -- >> Yeah, I mean -- >> -- contrived in a way. >> It may be a lot of work, but it was a lot of work that one person could probably do. >> Could have done. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> Mm-hmm. >> Right. And that's a different thing than true group work where you can accomplish something that's beyond what -- >> Right. >> -- could have been done by one person. >> I guess you could take different approaches, depending on how you plan and how you teach your course, but do you find yourself kind of thinking about it backwards, where you envision a product or a project or an end goal that you want your students to accomplish and then kind of work back inside? >> I do. And because the goal of this class is to teach them how to work in groups, my outcomes are -- there's a couple of them, but really I want them to be confident that they know what to do. If a problem comes up, a situation come, they know how to ask for help from -- >> Mm-hmm. >> One of the challenges is sometimes we, you know, we live in a fairly individualistic culture, and asking for help is not necessarily seen as a positive. >> Right? Yeah. >> But really in groups, one of the ideal things is that you learn to ask for help. I don't know how to do this, can I get some help here? And those two people or three people working on it, you can figure it out oftentimes. So that's kind of one of the -- so I asked -- after them learning all the skills that are going to help them work in groups. So that's one thing. And then the service learning, they often really feel so good about what they've accomplished at the end, even if it's going to the food, Marion County Food Service and sorting onions, you know? I have videos, the students have taken videos of themselves, but when they show you the pile of boxes that they went through and the amount of onions they sorted, or beans or whatever it was, you can see the pride in their faces. And it's something that one person by themselves couldn't have accomplished, even if it's physical labor. >> Well, and like you mentioned the fire hydrant. So I haven't really paid attention to fire hydrants on campus, but it makes sense. We have a fire science program, and so them taking on something that probably most people overlook is still rewarding because they can go by later and think I did that. I upgraded those, I painted them, I had a part in, you know, beautifying campus or whatever it is. >> And one of the best things is they often learn something about the community. If they volunteer at Marion Polk County Food Share, they often get a tour and they get a sense of this behind the scenes, what goes on to feed people. How many of the farmers in the area contribute all year long, but then have to also use the food pantry because the seasonal type of availability of food. So they learn all sorts of fascinating things about the Park Service and who, what goes on behind the scenes, or litter, just so they always learn really interesting things that they come back and we learn in their presentations. >> So, Debbie, for people who are not teaching communication courses that are -- >> Right. >> -- focused on teamwork and group work, what would be some tips or recommendations you would give them for introducing effective group work into their classes rather than just saying, hey, go do this assignment that I always teach, but as a group? >> Sure, I'd love to offer some thoughts on that. There's -- I'm going to just go through about five different things, but it's going to sound more -- like more than five. But one of the -- so these tips are for people who are not used to working in teams. If you're experienced working in teams, you probably already -- well, if you attend meetings, you know about like Robert's Rules of Order, and there's a process that you go through. It's already very formal. But when you are in a new team, all of that -- you don't have that already built in. So you kind of have to figure out that part out on your own. And I like to start by saying, you know, there's the task, that whatever it is that you want to accomplish, but really there's all the stuff that you need to know and do to accomplish the task, the procedures. And that's what we often forget, and that's what we don't teach so much, is the procedures for getting the task done. So the first thing I'd like to share, the one thing that I found the most helpful when I first learned about groups was that groups go through stages of group development. And if you know about those stages, there are things you can do to help the group through those stages. And I use the easiest way to remember it: forming, storming, norming, performing, and adjourning. And I'll go through those. The first is forming, and that's when the group members first get to know each other. They don't know each other yet. And so people are tentative when you first get to know. You don't share your deepest beliefs, you know, when you first get to know people. So something, a tip you can take for that is that's the icebreaker. People know about icebreakers. But the reason for the icebreaker is so that you can get to know each other. And something that I like to do in my classes is have students take the Myers Briggs. There's a student version, Myers Briggs, and then talk about what their personality traits are with each other, and then how do they work best in groups. So it actually focuses the conversation on how would you work with me in a group, and what are some things that I can be helpful at. So when people, for example, get to know me, they would probably ask me to do the first draft of something because I can whip a first draft out, but they probably would not ask me to be the final editor. That's a skill set that is not my strength. So when you get to know people, you know who to ask technology questions. If you got a people person in there, an extrovert, that might be the person that goes out and makes first contact for a service learning project kind of thing. So you get to know each other a little bit, and then you move on to the second stage. And this is the one it's good to know about, it's called storming. And, you know, as you get to know people more, you're more likely to share out your real opinions about things. And hence then you might have some disagreements about things. You might have some minor tussling about who's going to take what roles, who's going to be the leader, who's going to do what. And that's called storming as people try and figure out that kind of stuff. So just expect that you'll find a little bit of that going on. And then the third stage is norming, and I'm going to -- actually, most of the information I'll share later is about the norming stage, where you figure out how the group is going to operate and set yourself up for success. >> Mm-hmm. >> And then, finally then, you get to performing. And it's really tough for us task oriented people. We want to jump to performing right away, get at that task and get it done. But the research shows that if you skip forming, storming, and norming, you probably have to come back anyway because you'll run into trouble somewhere along the way and you'll have to circle back and do the things that you didn't do in the beginning. So you want to set yourself up for success. You want to build a positive group climate so that when you do end up with any challenges, you've already got a great climate for people to work through those things. And so then you're at performing where you're actually doing the task. And the last stage is adjourning, and that's when you celebrate what you've accomplished. You know, for our class, we have the presentation where we can admire the work that's been done and share out and be proud, and also closure. If you're ever in a group where it just disbanded and you didn't get to say goodbye or. So closure, if the group is going to go away at that point, that's adjourning. So sometimes if you just know what to expect, that can help you be comfortable waiting. So if you're task oriented and you want to get the task, waiting through those first three steps and knowing that they're important, and it's not, you don't really want to skip them. >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that's probably something that, like you were saying, if you're not accustomed to group work, you're not going to necessarily know about storming, norming, performing, and skip over those. >> Mm-hmm, and those first three steps take longer than people would anticipate. >> Mm-hmm. >> But they are important. >> Yeah. >> Build the time in for those. >> I like the idea of, some of your examples of the icebreakers were by using discussions, if it's the Myers Briggs, for example, learning about their personalities and how that could directly influence what's coming down the road. A lot of icebreakers seem to be just, hey, we're going to do this because it's what you do on the first day or whatever it might be. But by planning it ahead of time, you can incorporate some pretty important, kind of fact finding things in there that will, again, help them get set up for success. >> Yeah, and part of teaching them to be good team members is to be thoughtful about those preparatory activities, so that eventually they're going to be the leader. Right? And I start out being the leader at the beginning and being very directive. But in the second half of the term, I'm not directive at all. They have to make those decisions themselves. But ideally, they're making them with the information that they're gleaning through the course. >> So you said for norming, you had a bunch of tips. >> Yeah. >> What are those? >> One thing is to use roles. I think that a lot of times people don't participate well because they don't know how to. They don't know what to do, what to say, how to participate. If they haven't done a lot of group work, it's a totally new thing. And I know me, so if I got the -- if I have the teacher role or the instructor role, I know what to do. I'm prepared for that. So the roles I use, I actually only use about four when I start out. I use facilitator, and I give them a short one sentence description of what that means for facilitator's meaning. You know where the group is headed and you keep them in track for accomplishing that goal. I also use timekeeper because it's awfully hard for the facilitator to keep track of everything. So a timekeeper role is somebody who knows how long you have to accomplish the tasks and divides up the time. And then when you get to a point, you can say, well, it seems like we have about five minutes left. We should probably prepare our agenda for the next meeting, or we have about three minutes left to accomplish this task so we probably need to wrap up and move on to the next. So we have somebody who's helping the facilitator guide what's going on. The note taker is another role, somebody to take notes of what the decisions are, who's going to do what and all the information that you're going to collect. And just a side note, you always need to figure out a way to contact people in between meetings. And I'll talk more about this later, but also times, when you're -- how you're going to do that specifically. So the note taker. And then the last one is procedure watcher, and you're probably wondering what that is. But there are social roles where we kind of pay attention to who's talked, who hasn't talked and been included, whether there's any tension in the group, whether things are flowing comfortably. So I call that procedure watcher, that sort of keeps an eye on the tone of everything. And if one person hasn't talked, maybe you might say, you know, hey, Sara, we haven't heard from you. Did you have anything to add right now? So you kind of invite them in. Don't really want to put people on the spot necessarily, but it is good to, you know, have somebody paying attention to if there's a conflict arising. You can say something like, seems like we have a little tension over this topic. Do we want to discuss it further or should we maybe take a time out for a few minutes, or whatever approach you want to take. So give people roles so they actually know what to do, explain the roles. I put them on cards and pass them out so each team has to -- everybody has to take a role and they all know what they're going to do. So that's one suggestion, is -- >> That makes a lot of sense just because it gives everyone something to do in a meeting situation and they feel like they're contributing. And it's also a way the procedure watcher, I would think, would be a way to kind of help keep it inclusive so that everyone does have a voice and that I'm not talking so much that Bill can't jump in. >> Mm-hmm. And I ask them to think about if they're going to be a long-term project, switch those roles up. You know, don't take the same role every time so people get practice using the different roles. I often use a follow-up role where if there's anything that needs to be posted like, say, we're going to take minutes, we're going to post them someplace so everybody can see them, and maybe I need to make copies of something. Who knows what, but maybe I have plenty of time this week to do follow-up, but I know I'm going to be really busy later on. So I'm going to volunteer to do the follow-up role this week. So the group doesn't just assign roles without taking into consideration what people's needs are. >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. >> So another tip is to discuss and specify norms and procedures. So oftentimes when I do this activity at the beginning, I have them in groups talk about their best and worst experiences and, there's more to that activity. But one of the things that always comes up is either bad communication or good communication, but, you know, good and bad is pretty -- >> It's pretty broad. >> What the heck does that mean? >> Yeah. >> So the question is, you really have to figure out what good communication means. So one of the things you can do is talk about if we're going to communicate by text, are we going to communicate by email? And if we're going to do that, when? For example, what happens if we say, OK, everybody should turn their work in by Tuesday? Well, and does that mean -- Tuesday at what time? >> Mm-hmm. >> And then what are we going to do about that? Are we going to check in and review and edit at that point anywhere? So if we're going to use Google Docs, does everybody need to have their information into Google Docs and comments in by Tuesday at three o'clock. So be specific about how you're going to contact each other, but also when, because what happens a lot of the time is that groups will be really frustrated because one person didn't turn something in, and they didn't have a plan in place for what to do when that happened. It's funny because we all know that the biggest issues tend to be somebody doesn't show or they don't turn in what they said they would do. >> Mm-hmm. >> Right? OK, we know that, so why don't we plan for that? That's what you can teach them to do. If this happens, what is our procedure for that? >> Sure. >> Yeah. It could be a lot of different things, but you have to -- I had one group who had that situation happened, and at the end of the term they really didn't complete their group project because they didn't really put together a plan for what to do when one or two things didn't show up on time. So the thing is, we know that life happens, things get in the way, things that you don't anticipate. So plan for that and have a backup plan for what you will do if something's not there. >> Could it be as simple as if you can't get something in on time just having, alerting your group and letting them know I'm going to be late because at least you're not just avoiding it or ghosting the group or not showing up, right? >> Right, right. >> I would think that would be part of that, good communication is saying life got in the way, I can't get it in by three, I'll get it in by six. >> Right. That one possible option. >> Yeah. >> Another possible option is I just can't do it, or for the group to have a plan for if there's missing information. Have you ever been in that situation where you show up for a group presentation and one person is not there? >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, plan ahead for what you will do in worst case scenarios because we all know that they happen. So just think about that and come up with what will we do to move forward instead of -- the thing that happens is groups will get stuck. >> Yeah. >> And just not move at all because they didn't anticipate something and they don't have a plan for what to do in that situation. Another thing that you can do is figure out norms. So what -- there's interpersonal norms. How do we talk to each other? You know, is it with respect and in care? Procedural norms like we just talked about, what happens if somebody -- what happens if somebody doesn't contribute as much as hoped for in the group? >> Mm-hmm. >> Well, in my class, you know, what they should be saying is it will show up on that participation form and it will affect their grade. >> Right. >> So they have that. And then what does participation mean? That's another question. Does it mean can I miss one meeting and still get my full points? Can I miss two meetings? Can I miss five meetings? You know, if you talk ahead specifically about what participation means, then everybody kind of knows and agrees and the consequences are there and set out. >> Yeah, that makes sense. So when you're -- when you talk about participation like that, are you as an instructor defining what participation means for their grade or are you leaving it up to the groups to decide how they're going to participate and just share that info with you? >> I'm leaving it to the group because -- and on the participation form, there are like ten different ways to participate listed. So the group has some sort of sense because actually participation means so many different things. I mean, how do you compare somebody who builds a website with somebody who writes the paper with somebody who goes out and meets people and talks to them? So there are a lot of ways to participate. The main thing is the group feels that it's really fair and people really did a good job and can see that they were trying to do their best in that. And people are often really generous if they perceive that they're trying. >> Mm-hmm. Do you talk about that at all as you're getting them going in their groups? Is that perception that one task like building a website or the E-portfolio may seem more labor intensive than making a call to someone in the community to set up the service learning project in that it's OK if things don't seem equal, that everyone's doing their part? >> Right, and I think they tend to really -- when people are really doing their best and involved and providing their opinions and their information that they're learning, that things seem to go well. It's usually when people are absent or it doesn't seem like they really had much to present at all that people are pretty unhappy. Does that make sense? >> Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah. >> Another kind of norm is a status norm like -- and sometimes in achievement norms, status means, you know, who's going to be respected in the group. And interestingly, you know, sometimes we respect the people that talk a lot in groups. And in -- and actually the research shows that one of the ways to become a leader is to talk often and share what you know. However, there's also research that says that people who talk a lot are no smarter than people who don't talk a lot. So if you're an introvert and you share less -- actually, those people are often reflective thinkers and they think an awful lot and have a lot of good insights, but they just don't share it as much. So achievement norms are kind of interesting. You kind of want to talk about -- or status norms, I'm sorry. Well who's going to have status and -- just talk about that. And then another thing is achievement norms. You know, some people it's really important to get that A. I have certain students who know that there is no wiggle room. They have to have that A. And then there are other people that, hey, if I pass this class, I'm good, you know? So if you talk about that, then if somebody is not working quite as hard and the group knows that they really want a C, then that might be OK with the group, and other, they might adjust their expectations and also their feedback when they do the participation form. So just understanding people a little more and realizing that not everybody has to be the same. And then what will we do about that, you know? Is that acceptable in this situation? And that's difficult with students because you're thrust into a class with people that you don't know, oftentimes. >> Right. >> And you may not have the same goals. And it may be harder to understand some people that have different ways of going about things. >> Well, and you're accomplishing all this in less than ten weeks, really. >> Right, right. Which is -- so, you know, it is -- sometimes it's harder for students in groups than it is out in the real world where teams are often formed out of necessity and because you have passion for the project. And so you all are working, you know, voluntarily towards the same thing, and that's not necessarily the case with students. >> Yeah. >> So another tip I have really is to use agendas and take minutes. And the reason I say that, one, it's just a good practice for preparing where the group's going to go. If you think ahead about what you want to accomplish, how much time you have to accomplish it, and think -- have students think about how to use their time wisely. So use the group time to do things that you need everybody there for, decisions, for example. But if you can do the work at home and then bring it to the group and share out so you can make decisions about it, that's a better use of time than working in the group to do that. So think about -- prepare the agenda so people know how to be prepared to make the best use of whatever time they do have. And then minutes are just about taking notes so that people who are absent know what went on, and also if they have an assigned task, they know what that is, they know who to ask about, you know, any questions they have. So you can share that on Google Docs. Everybody can see that, the minutes, and know what they missed. And these days, I have more and more students that really work on Google Docs. They have -- if somebody is absent, they'll have a phone and attend the meeting by phone. So there are more ways that, you know, there's more flexibility and for being involved. >> Sure. Well, and it, like you said, it helps keep them on track and up to date and provides that clear communication as well. >> Right, right. And how many times have you forgotten exactly what you were going to do or what you said? You know, what the group decision was, and you can just go back to the minutes and say, oh, that's what we were doing. It's a useful guide and it's a good practice. I had one person from business community said, thank goodness you're teaching that, you know, because they, you know, that's just common practice. >> Yeah. >> Out in the work world. >> I really like the recommendation to keep the group meetings focused on things that have to be worked on as a group. >> Mm-hmm. >> I've been in so many situations in my own education where it's a group of five or six of us and we're sitting around one computer as the one person who is tasked to write, like the first draft, for example, is just sitting there typing up the paper and we're just kind of sitting there, well, what are we supposed to be doing right now? And, you know, with, you know, Google Docs and -- >> Right. >> -- new tech like that emerging, that could solve some of that, but -- >> Right. >> -- but I [inaudible] >> And that's what they should be thinking about if they're a facilitator. >> Yeah. >> And that's what you kind of try and pass on is your job is to think ahead and how to best use the group's time and organize whatever, the meeting so that it's the best use of time. And that means outside assignments, people come prepared. >> Mm-hmm. >> So -- >> Yeah, and you had a final tip to share with us? >> I do, and this is about how to be inclusive. And so the Myers Briggs, when they take that, they find out that people are really pretty different and there are introverts and extroverts, for example. And it turns out, believe it or not, the introverts make really good leaders a lot of times. You wouldn't sometimes think that, but because they're very reflective and thoughtful, and they're not so likely to talk their process out loud, they oftentimes are really thoughtful about how they would guide the meeting. They really don't oftentimes look for power or for being a leader. But when they're put in that position, they often are very strong. So an extrovert -- so you might not expect an introvert to talk a lot necessarily during a meeting. They are thinkers. An extrovert often processes information out loud with other people, and so you would expect more conversation. And that can be, I mean, there's no good or bad to any of that, just to know that people actually process information differently. And an introvert probably would prefer to have information ahead of time so they can have time to think about it and come with thoughts, even notes. So when you're being some -- one way to be inclusive is to have specific time set aside, you know, the whole pass the baton kind of thing. But the idea is that the ideal way to share is everybody shares equally, that you don't have one person or some people dominating. So you do need to have a process in place so that there is time for everyone to share their ideas. >> Mm-hmm. >> So that's preparing ahead of time, giving people information so they can think about it. And then alternative means to share. Sometimes writing is more comfortable for some people, sometimes talking is more comfortable for people. So, you know, provide different ways for people to provide whatever their opinions are, the information that they've researched. You can also have roles like gatekeeping. That's where you kind of pay attention to who's talking and how much time. And if somebody is sharing too much, you know, teach a few helpful phrases that people can use, like for gatekeeping. Well, now we've heard what Soren has said, we would like to hear from a couple of other people. So you can have somebody that stops the conversation and ask for others. You can also do things -- summarize information like, well, it seems like we have heard that blah, blah and blah, they're happening today, and we would like to get your opinions about that. And so you can summarize or you can have clarifying. Tell us more about what you're thinking on that, I'm not sure we quite understand, or paraphrasing. It sounds like what we're thinking about is this, and then give the paraphrase, and does that sound correct to everyone? So give examples of things that you could say in group situations so people have that kind of idea. So I hope that helps with being inclusive. >> Yeah, these tips are great, and they -- now that you've mentioned all these, they make so much sense, but I can see how without thinking through them you could easily assign a group project, not really help set students up for success by having them kind of do all this work ahead of time so that the actual group project goes more smoothly. >> Mm-hmm. >> And so I can see how all of these are really important, just as the roles in a group are really important, all these different stages are really important as well. >> Right, and it sounds like we've talked a lot, but -- it sounds like a lot, but really if you just make out a few role cards, if you type out a few things and do a few short explanations, I kind of intersperse this all throughout the class. I don't usually ever give people all this information at one time. >> Sure. >> It's in little snippets here and there. >> Yeah. >> And if you do that, and as you see the group working, you can stop them and say, you know, here's something I've thought of and give them a little bit more information. >> Yeah, this is great. >> Well, thank you for all that information, Debbie. It's been a pleasure having you here on HubTalk. Hopefully we can have you again for another episode sometime. >> Well, thank you. And, you know, it's been really fun to talk about this topic. I appreciate being invited. >> Yeah, and we can certainly direct faculty your way if they have any other questions or want to explore this more. >> Tune in next time for another episode of HubTalk. I am Bill Hamlin. >> And I'm Colin Stapp. >> HubTalk is produced by the Center for Academic Innovation at Chemeketa Community College. 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